Two very important news items have come my way. The first is the story of the first illegal outpost built by Jewish and Palestinian activists. It was built next to an illegal outpost put up by the settlers. Needless to say, only one outpost was taken down, and it wasn't the settlers'.
Until I get some more details, a very good description with videos is available here, at the wonderful Ibn Ezra blog, written by an Israeli peace activist.
In the meantime, Ezra Nawi, the legendary Israeli activist, has been arrested. An international campaign is underway. I urge you to read about it and act.
I read about the arrest of Ezra initially in Shammai Leibowitz's blog, Pursuing Justice, where he reproduces a Counterpunch article by Neve Gordon of Ben Gurion University.
I hope your 'bravo' is just a joke. I somehow doubt you'd 'defend' something illegal, even if you supported those who perpetrated the 'crime'. It reminds me of all those tribalists during the disengagement who refused to condemn or act against the abuse (or deprivation) of the protesters' rights - you know why though ... Because they're justice seeking Jews. Morality flows in their veins.
ReplyDeleteAvram, you missed the point big time.
ReplyDeleteThe Palestinians and the Israelis didn't put up an outpost to settle there. They WANTED the police to take it down, and to take the settler's illegal outpost down, too. Instead, they demonstrated to the world that when the settlers near Hebron break the law, nothing happens. Why?
Because they are afraid of tangling with the settlers -- whose "Dons" run the government
Let's hope Obama and the US plays the kindergarten cop with Israel.
Of course, all the West Bank outposts, including Efrat and Maale Edumim, are illegal by international standards. I am only talking about outposts that are illegal by the Occupier's standards.
"Because they are afraid of tangling with the settlers"
ReplyDeleteThey didn't do too bad of a job during the Disengagement or Amona though ...
"Let's hope Obama and the US plays the kindergarten cop with Israel."
It will be interesting to see how it plays out - right now, you must be very happy (at least so far)
Avram, the illegal settler outpost was built on a Palestinain framer's property, which was taken away from him through legal trickery by the military civil administration a couple of months ago (even then the settlers are not allowed to build there of course as it is obviously not their's). The activist outpost was built on his land with his permission.
ReplyDeleteI find no moral problem with combating immoral laws non violently.
I agree with you completely about the protest rights of those opposed to the disengagement.
Why is Obama talking about a "Two states" solution? Does'nt he know that there is no space anymore for a second state? If you substract the settlements, the outposts, the military posts, it leaves about 10% of the mamdate Palestine to the Palestinians, and furthermore this territory is in spare parts, without any continuity. So what's the purpose of believing in Santa Claus?
ReplyDeletehi Jerry,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, thanks for posting my blog and this post on your site. It is great to see some exposure for the work that we are doing in the West Bank.
Secondly, I applaud your understanding of the situation. As you can clearly see in the first video of Amiel on my post, the goal that we had was to document the Army removing our protest tent and not that of the settlers which demonstrates their involvement in the outpost process.
A note relating to this are the 'closed military zones' orders that we often encounter. By law, the army must remove all Israeli from a close military zone, what happens in reality is that the peace activists are removed and the settlers remain. It is problematic for the rule of law in Israel regardless of your political position (I am a center-left Israel for example) and that is why I am personally there to document it. I have a small post about it with videos and English translation: http://ibnezra.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/without-explanation/
All the best,
joseph
Avram
ReplyDeleteAmona...is that the settlement that was evacuated in 2006 (big news coverage) and is now getting more land in 2009 (less news converage, but read Haaretz from last week about settlement expansion.
"Road construction and farmland: This has gone on near the Bracha settlement south of Nablus, near Tapuach, in the Eli and Shiloh area and in the Amona and Elazar settlements."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1083667.html
"the illegal settler outpost was built on a Palestinian framer's property"
ReplyDeleteCofA - so then it's not really 'illegal', is it?
"Amona...is that the settlement that was evacuated in 2006 (big news coverage) "
Well at least then you admit that your statement of 'the government not wanting to tangle with settlers' is wrong - as they did and rather forcefully too (some of the 'settlers' - or yeshiva kids - were just as guilty however of the 'force' issue with bricks; they should be in jail with the policemen went overboard with violence)
"Amona"
How many people live there now?
"the illegal settler outpost was built on a Palestinian framer's property"
ReplyDelete"CofA - so then it's not really 'illegal', is it?"
Avram, I know you live in Jerusalem, but every heard of a building permit?
"How many people live in Amona"
now?
Why don't you report back to me? Go out and check. And while you are at it, why don't you let us known the increase in the number of illegal outposts since Amona was "evacuated" so that Olmert could get a few pictures in the papers for the Americans.
the sentence that is confusing me is cOFa's "the illegal settler outpost was built on a Palestinain framer's property."
ReplyDeleteI am taking this to be the outpost that was brought down by the IDF - and hence if it's the farmer's property, surely the 'building permit' should come from the PA? Or is the area until complete Israeli jurisdiction for that? (To be honest however, I have a very rudimentary understanding of how property/building rights work in this country or the territories)
I thought that the first outpost honors went to Bil'in?
ReplyDeleteI recently visited Amona. What was destroyed there, with great violence on the part of the police (something like 300 protestors were injured, 2/3 of which were head injuries caused by the police truncheons which were used illegally), about 20 police were also injured. Also Knesset members Aryeh Eldad and Effie Eitam were injured. Some of the civilians injured were maimed for life. Several police have been convicted of using force by the courts. If you want to talk about a "pogrom" done by Jews (i.e. the Jewish police), this is a good place to start.
ReplyDeleteWhat was destroyed at Amona was 9 permanent houses, the rest of the yishuv is still there, living in caravans.
Thanks, Y. Ben David
ReplyDeleten there were actually a quite a few. I also think Bilin was the first one, but there was also one in the Maale Adumim area and one in next to Kdumim
ReplyDeleteAnd if we are talking about Amona and MK Aryeh Eldad - there is a wonderful story there. After the violent evacuation Eldad complained that (and it's a quote) "they treated human beings here worse than how they treat Arabs!"
ReplyDelete(Hebrew link: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=677558&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0 )
If you want to talk about a "pogrom" done by Jews (i.e. the Jewish police), this is a good place to start.A better place to start is elsewhere. If the confrontation in Amona were with the Palestinians, there’d be dozens of casualties with shot wounds. In Bil’in for years much less violent demonstrations were met with deadly force. So, I don’t excuse the Police in its behavior, but things need to be put in perspective. The fact that the rightwingers decry the police only when other rightwingers are badly treated is a perfect example of how corrupt your minds are. (As to what happened to Effi Fine, could there be some karmic principle at work for all the beaten Palestinians from when he was makhat Giv’ati…)
ReplyDeletePeter-
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right. This has been one of the major failings of the traditional "right-wing" politicians and supporters....they automatically supported maximum use of force against Arabs and Haredim, but then discovered "police brutality" when it was applied to us. However, particularly since Oslo when the police were first used in force against us in our demonstrations, there has been rethinking in this matter. There has also been criticism for the massive use of force in the recent Gaza War by people you would consider "far-right-wingers".
Yet, I am sure you are aware that in the media, one hears far more about "violent right-wing extremists" than "violent Left-wing extremists" who are regularly involved in violence at Bil'in.
"The fact that the rightwingers decry the police only when other rightwingers are badly treated is a perfect example of how corrupt your minds are"
ReplyDeleteJust replace 'right wingers' with 'left wingers' and you have one of the most startling 'discoveries' of the disengagement. The left was practically silent (unless you're saying it's ok for policemen, 'men', to physically harass protesting religious women etc) - bar one or two organizations - when the police abused protesters non-stop (even arresting 13 year olds ... great stuff).
At least unknowingly you've again proved how equally corrupt the mind is of the left wing is in Israel ... and abroad.
(Pete, I'm not saying 'you' btw, just left wingers 'in general' who preach one thing and then when it happens to people who don't follow their 'line of thinking', just ignore the injustice. Hence, I was glad with CofA's comment. Your's less so, because you linked it to something more violent/serious, deliberately trying to lessen the gross police violations we saw during the Disengagement, or Amona ... )
ReplyDeleteAvram,
ReplyDeleteNeither right nor left have a monopoly on integrity, so, it is absolutely true that those on the left that did not protest or even support/gloat at the oppressive actions of the state against those on the right are corrupted as well. But... given that the state has been oppressing the Palestinians and to a lesser extent the radical left for much longer time and with much greater ferocity, it is a case where you can really say: "you started" and point a finger to the right. And if you compare, for example, the number of rightists in administrative detentions and the time they spend there to those of the Palestinians, or compare the number of killed/injured in the demonstrations etc, there is simply no comparison. See, for example this case. Do you imagine for a second that if the policeman-beating woman in question were a Palestinian she would have ended up only with a couple of month in jail and not a bullet in her head?
So, the old saying "live by the sword die by the sword" is absolutely true in this case (another example of karma coming back to bite you in the ass) and I'm in an agreement with YBD.
Now, Y Ben David, I am glad to hear that there has been a "rethinking in this matter" and "criticism for the massive use of force in the recent Gaza War by people you would consider "far-right-wingers"". I would appreciate if you pointed me to the sources. I am guilty of very little exposure to the right-wing (and have to admit that I admire your tenacity in hanging out with us "lefties" all the time). Our buddy Yisrael Medad is certainly not guilty of any of the above.
"And if you compare, for example, the number of rightists in administrative detentions and the time they spend there to those of the Palestinians"
ReplyDeleteAgain with your comparisons - Instead of saying, "It's wrong, full stop", you're comparing it in order to lessen its severity. If I said, "Ok so the Palestinians lost land, but hey, the Mizrachim lost land x5 the size of Israel - so it's not that bad", what would you say? You get the drift ...
The fact is, you generalized 'the whole right' when during the Disengagement (which if I remember correctly, you were here as you fought during the 2nd Lebanon war), the left remained silent as children were thrown into jail or beaten during these protests. So then I thought you would also generalize the left as being equally corrupt ...
you're comparing it in order to lessen its severityHuh? Of course, because it is less severe. If you spent a couple of weeks in administrative detention as opposed to a year, you'd also think it is less severe. If you got a broken finger as opposed to a rubber bullet between your eyes you'd think it is less severe.
ReplyDeleteYou get the drift ... No. Totally different things. I did not justify oppressive methods employed against anybody. I put things in perspective and fantasized about some karmic principle at work.
(which if I remember correctly, you were here as you fought during the 2nd Lebanon war)No, thankfully! I was in the US already.
the left remained silent as children were thrown into jail or beaten during these protests.Let's see concrete examples, all right?
Peter-
ReplyDeleteThe Makor Rishon newspaper had a lot about this. Various people on what you would consider the "far Right" such as Moshe Feiglin and Boaz Ha'Etzni said the war was conducted badly and unimaginatively. Of course, they are not saying that HAMAS didn't need to be hit, but they opposed the use of massive firepower, advocating the use of light, mobile commando units to hit the leaders instead of just blasting everything in sight.
"Of course, because it is less severe."
ReplyDeleteWhich is why the 'left' was silent I guess during the disengagement ... Which in turn, means they're corrupt (going by your logic in your first post sir).
"I did not justify oppressive methods employed against anybody."
Tell me, CofA condemned what happened to the right winger protesters outright. You said, 'well it's bad but compared to ...' ... You surely see a difference.
"No, thankfully! I was in the US already."
Didn't you say you sent your boys in there knowing your family would suffer katoshyot in Haifa? Or am I dreaming?
"Let's see concrete examples, all right?"
Are you serious? Ever heard of Association for Civil Rights in Israel? (the one nicknamed by some rightists as “the Association for Palestinians' Rights") They deal regularly with the arrest of right-wing minors.
One such example of it happening during the disengagement:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3182883,00.html
Yaakov, thanks, I'll take a look when I got time.
ReplyDeleteAvram,
You surely see a difference.Indeed I do and I think it is quite common to condemn certain things but to insist on things to be seen in perspective. Besides, explain to me (but honestly!) the rational behind you crusade for recognition of grave injustices committed by the state during the disengagement. I see it is to trivialize and delegitimize the leftists in their struggle for Palestinian human rights ("see, they are not consistent in their convictions, bah!").
Didn't you say you sent your boys in there knowing your family would suffer katoshyot in Haifa? Or am I dreaming?The bit about sending "my boy in there" - you are. The bit about my parents getting bombed by katyushot is right. I am not sure to which discussion you refer to. We can go back and check where the broken phone kicked in :)
Ever heard of Association for Civil Rights in Israel? (the one nicknamed by some rightists as “the Association for Palestinians' Rights") They deal regularly with the arrest of right-wing minorNothing like finishing a comment with a refutation of your own thesis, Avram. You need a lefty organization to tell you about the plight of rightwingers in Israel, which is supposedly so unrecognized on the left.
Avram - you're wrong. A quick search in ACRI's site will reveal several reports, released during the disengagement, that protest the human rights violations by the police and government against right-wing protesters. Here are just a few (I don't want to spam...):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.acri.org.il/Story.aspx?id=1161
http://www.acri.org.il/Story.aspx?id=1133
http://www.acri.org.il/Story.aspx?id=1056
"the rational behind you crusade for recognition of grave injustices committed by the state during the disengagement"
ReplyDeleteIt's not really a crusade, but just to show you that the problems (or corrupt ways as you say) that the right faces are equally present on the left. Just because politics separate us, doesn't mean we don't 'f**k up' similarly.
"You need a lefty organization to tell you about the plight of rightwingers in Israel, which is supposedly so unrecognized on the left."
I'm sorry if I implied 'ALL' lefties like didn't give two hoots - It's obviously not the case as I knew of this organization (& some of my friends too). I should have said there was silence amongst many in the left when human rights were violated by those didn't follow their political leanings.
Anonymous - thank you for giving me the links. That's two 'groups' now. Still doesn't refute the validity of my claim though.
It's not really a crusade, but just to show you that the problems (or corrupt ways as you say) that the right faces are equally present on the left. Just because politics separate us, doesn't mean we don't 'f**k up' similarly.C'mon, show me one (1) group on the right or one right wing commentator (despite claims by YBD that are still to be verified) that ever condemned much worse violations of human rights of the Palestinians or the radical left that has been perpetrated for years and then you can talk of "equally". Till then you're wasting your breath. A couple of months of administrative detention for a few cop-beating spoiled brats and Effi Fine tasting some of his own medicine don't cut it. They are wrong, true. But don't expect left human rights groups who have their hands full all the time with much worse abuse of Palestinians to divert their attention to these matters.
ReplyDeletePete (if you prefer Peter, let me know) - as we don't correspond via e-mail, I wasn't sure where to post this. But if you have a few 'weeks' spare, read this 766 pg monster:
ReplyDeleteThe Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History (NY: Prometheus Books, 2008)
I've only read bits and parts of it - but it's just texts and articles from Islamic historians about the relationship of the Jew to the Qua'ran, Islamic world etc. It runs with what we discussed a long time ago ...
Shabbat Shalom
So to sum up your feelings on the subject Peter (correct me if I'm wrong with them):
ReplyDeleteAs there are now 'right wing' groups that protest the violation of Palestinians' rights (I don't know if there are - nor have I researched it, but you're insinuating they're aren't by your comments), then the violations committed against right wingers are not 'that' serious and in some cases, even מגיע להם
(On a separate note, your continual comparison to the violation of Palestinians' rights weakens your argument imo. It isn't about comparing, it's about right/wrong and you're still trying to compare it to the suffering of the Palestinians in order to lessen it's 'wrongness' - which you finally admitted, then compared it again.. Basically, sums up my point from 'day 1')
As there are now 'right wing' groups that protest the violation of Palestinians' rights (I don't know if there are - nor have I researched it, but you're insinuating they're aren't by your comments), then the violations committed against right wingers are not 'that' serious and in some cases, even מגיע להם
ReplyDeleteAvram, you are wrong. The violations committed against the right wingers are less serious regardless of whether there are "'right wing' groups that protest the violation of Palestinians' rights". Just because they are less serious. I brought the fact that there are no such groups to counter your spurious claim that the problems (or corrupt ways as you say) that the right faces are equally present on the left.
It isn't about comparing, it's about right/wrong and you're still trying to compare it to the suffering of the Palestinians in order to lessen it's 'wrongness' - which you finally admitted, then compared it again..
Avram, ever heard of lesser crimes and greater crimes? For the former you might spend a night in detention, for the latter - several years. Both are "wrong", so? Your whole crusade - and it is a crusade, seeing how you hurry to insert your latest talking point here and at falsedi - about the grave injustices committed against the right wingers is motivated by nothing but desire to minimize the much worse offenses against the left wingers and the Palestinians. The rights of the anti-disengagement protesters were violated several years ago in a manner that is benign next to all the killed and maimed for life at Bil'in and Na'alin (as one example), yet you harp on it as if it is some sort of catastrophe for which the leftists, of all people, need to do soul-searching. I say it is bullshit.
"The violations committed against the right wingers are less serious regardless of whether there are "'right wing' groups that protest the violation of Palestinians' rights"."
ReplyDeleteSo that makes them right in your eyes? Stop the diversion dude, right or wrong? I'm not comparing it to a b or c, I'm asking - is this right or wrong?
(FYI: Note, I haven't really debated which is more serious abuse wise. There are times our abuse of Palestinians is far far worse. That doesn't make what happens to right wingers 'less wrong' which is what you're implying. Which is basically 'corrupt' as you define it).
"about the grave injustices committed against the right wingers is motivated by nothing but desire to minimize the much worse offenses against the left wingers and the Palestinians."
BS dude -- absolute BS. I could easily switch this around and say your continual comparison "about the injustices committed against the Arabs is motivated by nothing but desire to minimize the sometimes similar offenses committed against the right wingers". Unlike you, I'm saying all three are wrong. We're not talking about robbery vs murder here, we're talking about abusing protesters. Diversion is what you're calling it - and instead of being like ChildofAbraham (or the Ma'ariv reporter on falsedi), your political stance is not allowing you to say what s/he said, "I agree with you completely about the protest rights of those opposed to the disengagement" ... No comparison, no ifs, no buts - yes, it's wrong, full stop. The fact you can't say as much about you as your point re: right wingers not condemning violence against Palestinains & left wingers.
"The rights of the anti-disengagement protesters were violated several years ago in a manner that is benign next to all the killed and maimed for life at Bil'in and Na'alin"
ahhh, so someone has to be killed in order for it to be 'really' wrong in your eyes.
"I say it is bullshit."
ditto.
Pete
ReplyDeleteWhile this example is not that accurate I feel, let's see if it works. If G-d forbid (לא עלינו) someone you care about was raped and someone told you, 'dude, that's not that bad, my mother/sister got raped and murdered' - How would you react? Would you say, both events were both events were terrible? Or would you say, 'well, what i went through is benign next to what you went through'?
"seeing how you hurry to insert your latest talking point here and at falsedi"
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I found this "My daddy is bigger than your daddy" remark quite unlike you (I'm sure some of our debates have ended with your comments, it's not competition really) - you can have the last word and then I won't respond as we're going around in circles now and I'm sure we're boring Rebbe Haber.
No comparison, no ifs, no buts - yes, it's wrong, full stop.
ReplyDeleteAvram, I strongly object to efforts to create false symmetry where none exists. So, if you want me to say that harassment of right wing protesters is wrong, then I did so already and will do again. But if you want me not to insert "buts" then, no, I won't agree to that. Because otherwise a totally misleading picture emerges. One where right and left wing are harassed somehow equally. (And it is similar in manner to one of the biggest scams about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that of a somehow symmetric one where both sides are about equally bad; I myself used to fall prey to this kind of thinking.) Instead, the right wing cheered for years as the State of Israel oppressed the Palestinians and harassed their foes on the left (and they keep doing so), and only when the same Golem turned onto them started shouting "gevalt!".
While this example is not that accurate I feel, let's see if it works. If G-d forbid (לא עלינו) someone you care about was raped and someone told you, 'dude, that's not that bad, my mother/sister got raped and murdered' - How would you react?
A very bad example that has nothing to do with my arguments. I'll bring you a better one. In the thirties in the Soviet Union Stalin organized the Great Purge, during which the elite of the Communist party (with quite a few Jews among them, by the way) and of the Army were decimated. It was wrong, but... a lot of those old party leaders and army generals themselves just several years prior to that ruthlessly exterminated their political opponents (and countless people) in precisely the same manner. Then, later, the executioners of the Great Purge were executed themselves, then their executioners... etc. Were those purges wrong? Sure. But for some of the people purged you could feel no pity, no sympathy, because they simply succumbed to the horrible regime they themselves set in place. Golem she-kam al yotzro, as they say. This may explain what I feel then the right cries gevalt about the State's abusive methods: you set it up; you enjoyed it when it was used to your advantage; you started (no chicken and egg here!). Now taste some of your own medicine. That especially applies to people like Arie Eldad and Effi Fine. I, of course, do not feel the same about the teenagers (be they as violent and spoiled as they are). But how many are still in the administrative detention? What? Zero? How many get killed and wounded on a monthly basis during their demonstrations? What? Zero? Then, sorry, I cannot lose sleep over their plight.
ahhh, so someone has to be killed in order for it to be 'really' wrong in your eyes.
No, but see above. When the State starts abusing its power against the rightwingers I will chime in and say "it is wrong" and I hope no one there as much as breaks his or her finger (even if that somebody is named Arie Eldad :) ) As it is, there are more pressing problem right now.
I could easily switch this around and say your continual comparison "about the injustices committed against the Arabs is motivated by nothing but desire to minimize the sometimes similar offenses committed against the right wingers".
And you'd be right! I myself explicitly have been stating as much this whole conversation, unlike you, who, I feel, hides behind smoke screens of phony objectivity.
To be honest, I found this "My daddy is bigger than your daddy" remark quite unlike you
Sorry, I am thick today, did not get it, what remark?